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Brakes FAQ's revisited

Questions, answers, tips and tech on wheels, tires and brake issues

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LS6 Tommy
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Brakes FAQ's revisited

Post by LS6 Tommy » Sun Apr 30, 2006 10:04 pm

OK guys, let's see if I can keep my mind off of Finster long enough to rewrite the deleted "Brakes FAQ's" post for a new "Sticky".

Q: Can I run stock upper A-arms with the B-body/1LE conversion?
A: No. The camber would be way out (+) and the necessary shim pack would be ridiculously thick.

Q: Can I use the stock disc/drum combo valve on a disc/disc setup?
A: No. The proprotioning is much different, the rear brakes will get too much pressure reduction under hard braking. The metering is different, too. There will be too much delay of the front brakes, resulting in excessive rear lock up.

Q: Can I use a disc/drum master cylinder on a disc/disc setup?
A: No. The master cylinder will not move enough fluid volume to give you proper rear caliper pressure, resulting in a mushy pedal or very little rear brakes or both.

Q: Can I use an adjustable brake bias valve instead of a combination valve?
A: You shouldn't on a stock style system. It can be done, but you end up not having the rear brakes start to apply first. This helps keep the car stable. There is also a safety built into the valve that blocks off a circuit if it develops a leak so you don't run the risk of "bypassing" the M/C and losing all the fluid. Adjustable type bias valves are just that- bias valves. They are designed to be used for fine tuning front/rear bias on a stock style system with a combo valve or to be used with a dual master cylinder set up like most race cars have.

Q: Can I use a power brake master cylinder on a manual brake conversion?
A: No. It would work, but you end up with extremely high pedal effort. If you try to use a manual master cylinder with a booster, the opposite is true. You get an extremely light pedal that's very touchy.

Q: Can I eliminate the combo valve when I convert to disc/disc?
A: Technically, yes. It should work if the M/C has the same size bore for the front and rear brake circuits. For stock set ups, I would have to say no for the reasons listed above.


I'll add more if I think of them.

Tommy

edited 07 May 06
Last edited by LS6 Tommy on Sun Nov 25, 2012 8:29 am, edited 3 times in total.
20k mile '80 Malibu, currently undergoing long term (aka no money) factory style install LS6 454, Cowl Induction, Legend LGT 700 5 speed. Full Global West suspension, 17" N90 wheels, 12" front/11" rear disc brakes, 9" 3.70 Auburn Pro posi.

"The older I get, the faster I was"

Duts87ss
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Post by Duts87ss » Mon May 01, 2006 9:09 am

Concerning the disc/disc vs. disc/drum Q&A's:

From what I've heard, Baer Brakes doesnt recommend any changes/upgrades to the master cylinder or combination valve when using their front and rear disc kits (as far as G-bodies are concerned). There are quite a few people on montecarloss.com running rear discs without a change in mc or combo valves. With Baer being as large a company as it is, I dont think their lawyers would let them recommend something that wasnt safe or caused products to work in a range less that what they were designed.

These disc conversions are pretty much F-body rear discs; you may be refering to something completely different.
Dustin
'87 MCSS

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Post by nowukno » Mon May 01, 2006 2:33 pm

Duts87ss wrote:Concerning the disc/disc vs. disc/drum Q&A's:

From what I've heard, Baer Brakes doesnt recommend any changes/upgrades to the master cylinder or combination valve when using their front and rear disc kits (as far as G-bodies are concerned). There are quite a few people on montecarloss.com running rear discs without a change in mc or combo valves. With Baer being as large a company as it is, I dont think their lawyers would let them recommend something that wasnt safe or caused products to work in a range less that what they were designed.

These disc conversions are pretty much F-body rear discs; you may be refering to something completely different.
I heard the same thing about Stainless Steal brakes too..You dont have to change a thing,you just bolt them on..

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LS6 Tommy
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Post by LS6 Tommy » Mon May 01, 2006 8:24 pm

AFAIK, the kits from Baer and SSB are designed to work with the stock masters and combo valves. I'm talking about installations using generic parts combos, not specifically engineered sytems.

Tommy
20k mile '80 Malibu, currently undergoing long term (aka no money) factory style install LS6 454, Cowl Induction, Legend LGT 700 5 speed. Full Global West suspension, 17" N90 wheels, 12" front/11" rear disc brakes, 9" 3.70 Auburn Pro posi.

"The older I get, the faster I was"

Duts87ss
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Post by Duts87ss » Tue May 02, 2006 10:05 am

Most of the Baer kits use PBR calipers just like the ones used on C4 and C5 Vettes and LS1-equipped F-bodies. I'm sure the calipers that are *made* by (or for) Baer will need some sort of other mods though (but who knows).
Dustin
'87 MCSS

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LS6 Tommy
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Post by LS6 Tommy » Tue May 02, 2006 10:25 am

Thanks for the "sticky"!

Tommy
20k mile '80 Malibu, currently undergoing long term (aka no money) factory style install LS6 454, Cowl Induction, Legend LGT 700 5 speed. Full Global West suspension, 17" N90 wheels, 12" front/11" rear disc brakes, 9" 3.70 Auburn Pro posi.

"The older I get, the faster I was"

mac daddy

Post by mac daddy » Tue May 02, 2006 1:12 pm

Tommy, I converted over to 12 inch brakes, 1le rotors,Caprice calipers, and spindles. I have a 69 Camaro manuel brake master cylinder. The brake pedal is spungy and it doesn't stop any better. Any suggestions??

Duts87ss
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Post by Duts87ss » Tue May 02, 2006 2:35 pm

mac daddy wrote:Tommy, I converted over to 12 inch brakes, 1le rotors,Caprice calipers, and spindles. I have a 69 Camaro manuel brake master cylinder. The brake pedal is spungy and it doesn't stop any better. Any suggestions??
A master cylinder for the Caprice that the calipers came from.
Dustin
'87 MCSS

mac daddy

Post by mac daddy » Fri May 05, 2006 7:01 am

The Caprice MC only comes in power brakes. I have manual brakes. Will I have to change anything else?

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LS6 Tommy
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Post by LS6 Tommy » Sun May 07, 2006 10:43 pm

mac daddy wrote:Tommy, I converted over to 12 inch brakes, 1le rotors,Caprice calipers, and spindles. I have a 69 Camaro manuel brake master cylinder. The brake pedal is spungy and it doesn't stop any better. Any suggestions??
The Camaro M/C bore may be too big, resulting in low pressure at the calipers.

Tommy
20k mile '80 Malibu, currently undergoing long term (aka no money) factory style install LS6 454, Cowl Induction, Legend LGT 700 5 speed. Full Global West suspension, 17" N90 wheels, 12" front/11" rear disc brakes, 9" 3.70 Auburn Pro posi.

"The older I get, the faster I was"

bambam

UPPER CONTROL ARM SHAFT.

Post by bambam » Thu May 11, 2006 10:53 am

Tommy I've seen lately that there are upper control arm shafts that are offset for a better allignment af front tires. Does this mean that if I changrd the shaft that I would not have to dish out the extra big bucks for a whole new set of uppers. (78). Thats if I wanted to go with the drop spindels. Thanks. Tom.

Duts87ss
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Post by Duts87ss » Fri May 12, 2006 10:19 am

Tom,
drop spindles require no other changes to the suspension. All they do is move the spindle up on the steering knuckle.
Dustin
'87 MCSS

bambam

Post by bambam » Fri May 12, 2006 7:13 pm

I think that , that is true for 79 >87, but the 78 I was told and have read that the spindles are smaller and fatter.

Duts87ss
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Post by Duts87ss » Sat May 13, 2006 8:33 pm

I think the only difference is the bearing size and brake rotor; so, you may want to just get that stuff new when you do the swap. If you havent replaced rotors and bearings in a while, they could probably use it anyway.
Dustin
'87 MCSS

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LS6 Tommy
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Re: UPPER CONTROL ARM SHAFT.

Post by LS6 Tommy » Sat May 13, 2006 8:52 pm

bambam wrote:Tommy I've seen lately that there are upper control arm shafts that are offset for a better allignment af front tires. Does this mean that if I changrd the shaft that I would not have to dish out the extra big bucks for a whole new set of uppers. (78). Thats if I wanted to go with the drop spindels. Thanks. Tom.
If you mean to do the 1LE/B-body spindle, yes, you need the uppers. The offset shafts are only slightly offset. You'd still end up with a huge stack of shims. My GW uppers came with the offset shafts.

I reallly don't know whether the offset shafts would be any improvement with dropped spindles. Sorry. I'd guess that if the dropped spindles are made to use stock G-body uppers, the offset shafts may improve the geometry a bit, but the spindles may have the offset built-in, too. Your best bet would be to consult the spindle manufacturer.

Tommy
20k mile '80 Malibu, currently undergoing long term (aka no money) factory style install LS6 454, Cowl Induction, Legend LGT 700 5 speed. Full Global West suspension, 17" N90 wheels, 12" front/11" rear disc brakes, 9" 3.70 Auburn Pro posi.

"The older I get, the faster I was"

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