Panhard bar

[El Camino Junkie]

Does anyone have a panhard bar set up on their Bu or Elke? I read that you can stabilize the rear with one, but have not seen for sure what these will do. I am trying to figure out a way to stop the car from rolling when cornering. The front is pretty solid, with not too much sway, but the rear of the El Camino rolls pretty badly when cornering. It has a rear sway bar, but that just does not help with the roll.

 

[Norm Peterson]

The OE rear sta-bar (sway bar) in these cars is not really there to reduce roll. Mostly it is there to modify the understeer/oversteer balance by other means. Having it permits a larger front sta-bar which is far more effective in reducing roll.

Panhard bars will locate the axle laterally, which duplicates the function of the upper arms being skewed. In combination with the A/G-body converging/triangulated 4-link rear suspension it should only be used to improve axle location. Not reduce roll. As long as the PHB is located up around the same height as the UCA axle side pivots, the ride will only get a little stiffer without doing anything else.

Done improperly, with the PHB at a significantly different height than the UCA pivots, the PHB will cause geometry conflict with the UCAs and bind up the suspension to some degree. The result here is flatter cornering but a greater tendency for the rear end to get loose while cornering and more sudden about that happening.

That's what some of the Fox Mustang autocrossers who add a PHB to their converging/triangulated 4-link rear suspension call "snap-oversteer". It's reasonably well behaved most of the time and badly behaved a very small part of the time (for most folks). I don't recommend modifying the rear suspension in this manner, but if you choose to do it anyway, be very careful in your installation and in your driving afterward as it can turn and bite.


A PHB properly belongs with torque arm suspensions (3rd/4th gen F-bodies), 3-link suspensions (S197/2005-2009 Mustangs) and as part of the aftermarket "5-link" (Steeda?) or similar. Not with leaf springs or converging/triangulated 4-links.


Norm

 

[El Camino Junkie]

Great information.

Does anybody have any suggestions to stiffen up the suspension on the El Camino. I am running the fac rear, and air shocks. Would a coil over set up be a better way to go?

 

[Norm Peterson]

Hoping that the picture works, here's what 640 lb/in front springs, 165-ish rear springs, 32mm front and 22mm rear bars (both OE F41) do for my car in a pretty serious turn. In addition to those specs, I have replaced most of the body mounts with 88A poly, upgraded the front endlinks with (slightly modified) poly bushed endlinks, replaced the front upper and lower control arm bushings and the rear lower control arm bushings with poly. I have modified the poly control arm bushings to mostly eliminate squeaking and reduce roll bind. There's also a supplemental (large) crossmember in addition to all of the F41 braces that came as OE.


It rides a little firmly, but as far as I'm concerned, it's daily-driveable just about anywhere that's paved.


Norm

 

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air shocks? are you raising the rear? prob yes. just lowering the center of gravity will reduce the amount of roll. get that rear end down to start. this will make the front geometry happier too.ditch the air shocks!

 

[Killerdave8813]

Hey Man,I'f that's the beast we're talking about in the your avitar it looks to me that your wheels are way off from what you need for decent handling,It's hard to tell but it looks like the fronts are sticking out of the wheel wells and the backs deffinatly are,the best I ever did on the front were 15X7 Ralleys with 235/60's with about 3 1/2" backspacing,on a stock suspension that is and it's tight but you can get 15X8's with the same backspace on the back with 275/60's although 255's will fit better,you may have to do a bit of clearencing,wheel well
lip etc,although not racy looking they seem to handle better if you use the same size wheel/tire combo all the way around,the bottom line is you need to get your Camino closer to the ground if you want it to drive/handle good,I had a 79 Bu daily driver with the 15X7/235/60 combo,all stock suspension with HD shocks and no rear sway bar sat at stock height,deffinatly not an autocrosser but it drove and handled very well,I guess the bottom line is as long as you're sittin the way you are it's probably not going to drive very well,Hope it helps! Later,KillerDave

 

[Norm Peterson]

Guess I should have posted wheel/tire info. Wheels are 15 x 8.5 with (IIRC) -13 mm offset (a little over 4.25" backspace), all around. Tires have been 245/50 but were 225/60 in the picture. I did have to do a little clearancing on the lips of the UCAs outboard and behind the upper ball joints, so 15 x 8 with 4" backspacing is a safer size wheel. The fender side may need a little work either way.

If you end up needing stiffer rear springs I'd talk with Marcus at http://www.scandc.com . I think he found some 200 lb/in rear springs. There's also the circle track supply houses. But don't get too crazy with rear springs without stiffening the front suspension as well.

I don't know whether the El Camino's structure around the shock mounts is specifically reinforced or not, but it's not generally a good idea to have the shock mounts on most domestic cars also have to carry the car weight in addition to the forces developed in the shocks themselves. The metal will crack from fatigue sooner or later.


Norm

 

[El Camino Junkie]

Hey Man,I'f that's the beast we're talking about in the your avitar it looks to me that your wheels are way off from what you need for decent handling,It's hard to tell but it looks like the fronts are sticking out of the wheel wells and the backs deffinatly are,the best I ever did on the front were 15X7 Ralleys with 235/60's with about 3 1/2" backspacing,on a stock suspension that is and it's tight but you can get 15X8's with the same backspace on the back with 275/60's although 255's will fit better,you may have to do a bit of clearencing,wheel well
lip etc,although not racy looking they seem to handle better if you use the same size wheel/tire combo all the way around,the bottom line is you need to get your Camino closer to the ground if you want it to drive/handle good,I had a 79 Bu daily driver with the 15X7/235/60 combo,all stock suspension with HD shocks and no rear sway bar sat at stock height,deffinatly not an autocrosser but it drove and handled very well,I guess the bottom line is as long as you're sittin the way you are it's probably not going to drive very well,Hope it helps! Later,KillerDave

If you are talking about the El Camino in my avitar, yes that is the car I am talking about. No, the tires are inside the fenderwells now. That is an old picture of the car. I am running the same wheels, excetp 8's on the back with a 255/60/15 on it, and 215/60/15's on the front. both are tucked nicely in the wheelwells. I do run some air in the shocks because if I do not, the car sags too much and is terrible to drive.

 

[Killerdave8813]

Well that sounds better I'd say it's time for some springs & shocks,I hesitate to give you any suggestions as there are many choices and they all affect ride height etc. I'm fooling around with Moog springs off the chart elsewhere on this site but am going to have to modify them to get where I want to be and am going to try KYB shocks,we'll see what happens,Good Luck,KillerDave