Brakes FAQ's revisited

LS6 Tommy

MalibuRacing Junkie
May 15, 2004
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OK guys, let's see if I can keep my mind off of Finster long enough to rewrite the deleted "Brakes FAQ's" post for a new "Sticky".

Q: Can I run stock upper A-arms with the B-body/1LE conversion?
A: No. The camber would be way out (+) and the necessary shim pack would be ridiculously thick.

Q: Can I use the stock disc/drum combo valve on a disc/disc setup?
A: No. The proprotioning is much different, the rear brakes will get too much pressure reduction under hard braking. The metering is different, too. There will be too much delay of the front brakes, resulting in excessive rear lock up.

Q: Can I use a disc/drum master cylinder on a disc/disc setup?
A: No. The master cylinder will not move enough fluid volume to give you proper rear caliper pressure, resulting in a mushy pedal or very little rear brakes or both.

Q: Can I use an adjustable brake bias valve instead of a combination valve?
A: You shouldn't on a stock style system. It can be done, but you end up not having the rear brakes start to apply first. This helps keep the car stable. There is also a safety built into the valve that blocks off a circuit if it develops a leak so you don't run the risk of "bypassing" the M/C and losing all the fluid. Adjustable type bias valves are just that- bias valves. They are designed to be used for fine tuning front/rear bias on a stock style system with a combo valve or to be used with a dual master cylinder set up like most race cars have.

Q: Can I use a power brake master cylinder on a manual brake conversion?
A: No. It would work, but you end up with extremely high pedal effort. If you try to use a manual master cylinder with a booster, the opposite is true. You get an extremely light pedal that's very touchy.

Q: Can I eliminate the combo valve when I convert to disc/disc?
A: Technically, yes. It should work if the M/C has the same size bore for the front and rear brake circuits. For stock set ups, I would have to say no for the reasons listed above.


I'll add more if I think of them.

Tommy

edited 07 May 06
 

Duts87ss

Amateur Racer
Apr 8, 2005
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Concerning the disc/disc vs. disc/drum Q&A's:

From what I've heard, Baer Brakes doesnt recommend any changes/upgrades to the master cylinder or combination valve when using their front and rear disc kits (as far as G-bodies are concerned). There are quite a few people on montecarloss.com running rear discs without a change in mc or combo valves. With Baer being as large a company as it is, I dont think their lawyers would let them recommend something that wasnt safe or caused products to work in a range less that what they were designed.

These disc conversions are pretty much F-body rear discs; you may be refering to something completely different.
 

nowukno

Dragway Regular
Sep 26, 2004
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Duts87ss said:
Concerning the disc/disc vs. disc/drum Q&A's:

From what I've heard, Baer Brakes doesnt recommend any changes/upgrades to the master cylinder or combination valve when using their front and rear disc kits (as far as G-bodies are concerned). There are quite a few people on montecarloss.com running rear discs without a change in mc or combo valves. With Baer being as large a company as it is, I dont think their lawyers would let them recommend something that wasnt safe or caused products to work in a range less that what they were designed.

These disc conversions are pretty much F-body rear discs; you may be refering to something completely different.
I heard the same thing about Stainless Steal brakes too..You dont have to change a thing,you just bolt them on..
 

LS6 Tommy

MalibuRacing Junkie
May 15, 2004
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AFAIK, the kits from Baer and SSB are designed to work with the stock masters and combo valves. I'm talking about installations using generic parts combos, not specifically engineered sytems.

Tommy
 

Duts87ss

Amateur Racer
Apr 8, 2005
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Most of the Baer kits use PBR calipers just like the ones used on C4 and C5 Vettes and LS1-equipped F-bodies. I'm sure the calipers that are *made* by (or for) Baer will need some sort of other mods though (but who knows).
 

LS6 Tommy

MalibuRacing Junkie
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Thanks for the "sticky"!

Tommy
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Tommy, I converted over to 12 inch brakes, 1le rotors,Caprice calipers, and spindles. I have a 69 Camaro manuel brake master cylinder. The brake pedal is spungy and it doesn't stop any better. Any suggestions??
 

Duts87ss

Amateur Racer
Apr 8, 2005
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mac daddy said:
Tommy, I converted over to 12 inch brakes, 1le rotors,Caprice calipers, and spindles. I have a 69 Camaro manuel brake master cylinder. The brake pedal is spungy and it doesn't stop any better. Any suggestions??
A master cylinder for the Caprice that the calipers came from.
 
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Anonymous

Guest
The Caprice MC only comes in power brakes. I have manual brakes. Will I have to change anything else?
 

LS6 Tommy

MalibuRacing Junkie
May 15, 2004
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mac daddy said:
Tommy, I converted over to 12 inch brakes, 1le rotors,Caprice calipers, and spindles. I have a 69 Camaro manuel brake master cylinder. The brake pedal is spungy and it doesn't stop any better. Any suggestions??
The Camaro M/C bore may be too big, resulting in low pressure at the calipers.

Tommy
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
UPPER CONTROL ARM SHAFT.

Tommy I've seen lately that there are upper control arm shafts that are offset for a better allignment af front tires. Does this mean that if I changrd the shaft that I would not have to dish out the extra big bucks for a whole new set of uppers. (78). Thats if I wanted to go with the drop spindels. Thanks. Tom.
 

Duts87ss

Amateur Racer
Apr 8, 2005
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Tom,
drop spindles require no other changes to the suspension. All they do is move the spindle up on the steering knuckle.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
I think that , that is true for 79 >87, but the 78 I was told and have read that the spindles are smaller and fatter.
 

Duts87ss

Amateur Racer
Apr 8, 2005
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I think the only difference is the bearing size and brake rotor; so, you may want to just get that stuff new when you do the swap. If you havent replaced rotors and bearings in a while, they could probably use it anyway.
 

LS6 Tommy

MalibuRacing Junkie
May 15, 2004
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Re: UPPER CONTROL ARM SHAFT.

bambam said:
Tommy I've seen lately that there are upper control arm shafts that are offset for a better allignment af front tires. Does this mean that if I changrd the shaft that I would not have to dish out the extra big bucks for a whole new set of uppers. (78). Thats if I wanted to go with the drop spindels. Thanks. Tom.
If you mean to do the 1LE/B-body spindle, yes, you need the uppers. The offset shafts are only slightly offset. You'd still end up with a huge stack of shims. My GW uppers came with the offset shafts.

I reallly don't know whether the offset shafts would be any improvement with dropped spindles. Sorry. I'd guess that if the dropped spindles are made to use stock G-body uppers, the offset shafts may improve the geometry a bit, but the spindles may have the offset built-in, too. Your best bet would be to consult the spindle manufacturer.

Tommy
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
I spoke to Wilwood brakes this morning and told them the set up I have (listed below) and they recommend that I remove the stock prop valve that is on the fram and just add an adjustable one for the rear brakes and set them up that way?? I am now thoroughly confused. I am not sure of what to change now and what to leave. Do I buy a different master? Should I go with the steel concepts conversion above? Should I go with one of these?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1,1&item=260004298223&ih=016&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT He's got more in stock, both power and manual.



I have a 78 Malibu, stock front disc brakes and when my rear end arrives, I will have a set of Wilwood rear disc brakes. http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=WIL%2D140%2D2118B&N=4294922533+400196+4294822018+4294900976+4294847526+115&autoview=sku


Last question, do manual brakes work as well as power brakes? Never driven a car with manual brakes, so not too sure? Any help would be appreciated.
 

LS6 Tommy

MalibuRacing Junkie
May 15, 2004
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You've got way more rear brakes than the stock fronts can effectively work with. You'll have major rear lock-up problems. Unless you upgrade the front brakes, you're going to need to reduce the rear bias a LOT. You'll need an adjustable prop valve, even with the stock combo valve. You may not even be able to back the rears off enough with a prop valve.

Tommy
 
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Anonymous

Guest
I shouldn't have too many problems, I hope. I run just about the same set up on my Camaro, minus the stock prop valve and added a Bear prop for the rear. Car stops on a dime.
 
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Anonymous

Guest
Tommy, I got a 89 Caprice M/C The vacuum pedal rod is too long. Does the M/C assemble to the firewall or do I need a specific part?
 
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Anonymous

Guest
i've been debating on how i want to go about converting my car over to manual brake also. from what i've been told from sevral people and steel concepts is w/ a disc / drum setup junk the factory power prop valve , run wilwood 10lb diversion valve in rear lines and call it a day?
 
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