Trailing arms for a road car?

Norm Peterson

Amateur Racer
Oct 18, 2003
251
0
16
state of confusion
shotgun said:
It is interesting how similar they are. My goals are a little different, daily driver,tow vehicle,family cruiser
Yeah. Mine would still double as a daily-driver though. I do have a light-duty trailer hitch (that has done more than "light duty" a couple of times).

Extra nonstandard front crossmember
I assume you welded something in? I have the GP crossbrace
Yup. The primary intent was to make the front sta-bar more effective, but a noticeable reduction in chassis vibrations was a nice surprise. Mine's made up from 3 x 3 tubing. It probably puts one aluminum head worth of weight savings back on. I was at 52.? / 47.? before adding it.


88A poly body bushings in most locations
Still stock but they are a planned update, What's 88A?
Durometer. It's been a while, but I think there is another stiffness for poly body bushings that is slightly softer.



Looks like your suspension tuning is a little more in the "big bar soft spring" direction than mine.

I do know of a guy on a Mustang forum who actually autocrosses a wagon (I'm thinking it's a Fairmont).


Norm
 
"Looks like your suspension tuning is a little more in the "big bar soft spring" direction than mine."

I noticed the same thing.

What's your weigh? Yours has got to crush my portly 3960# with driver :shock: .

I would be interested in a source/part # for softer poly body bushings. I would like to retain some ride comfort, looking at Prothane right now.

Also looking at 4.10 gears to help with the towing. I plan on towing a 3000# race car.

Maybe we could get together at a driver event this summer and I could embarress myself since you are so close.
 

Norm Peterson

Amateur Racer
Oct 18, 2003
251
0
16
state of confusion
I did get the car weighed, and I think it was 34xx without me in it. Haven't seen the paper with the numbers in years, though. Maybe I have it in a little spreadsheet somewhere.

The 88A stuff does not give an unpleasant ride. Firmer, yes. Guess it depends on individual tolerance for NVH though, which does include that of any frequent passengers.

Philly Region SCCA (http://www.phillyscca.com for schedule) will be running a number of events on the abandoned airstrip at Warminster Community Park and a few in the Citizens Bank Ballpark parking lot this year. I probably won't be running the Malibu, though (long story).


Norm
 

James Bond

Dragway Regular
Dec 26, 2005
1,359
0
0
Earth
great info....

Norm, have you done any calculation of the lca buckling load?
 

Norm Peterson

Amateur Racer
Oct 18, 2003
251
0
16
state of confusion
Nothing yet, as I'm not making enough power, getting enough traction, or starting hard enough for there to be much risk. Work is running a little slow, so I might try to wing something quick and dirty. I'd like to throw it at ANSYS, but that's not on any computer I can get at.

Without any numbers - in pure compression the OE pieces are probably a lot better than people give them credit for. It's when they are also loaded heavily in torsion as the chassis rolls and you're using rock-hard control arm bushings that the combined stress is the real problem.


Norm
 

James Bond

Dragway Regular
Dec 26, 2005
1,359
0
0
Earth
if you get a chance to run it post up the results. i'd love to see what it can do.
 

rjleiker

Amateur Racer
Sep 24, 2008
261
0
0
Derby, KS
I've seen this somewhere, but can't remember where...

I saw a kit you could buy that had the control arm boxing pieces pre-cut that you just weld in... has anyone else seen these?

Also, what would everyone consider to be the best first (or second and third) step in modification to corner better from bone stock - bushings, arms, sway bars, braces, spindles, ball joints, etc..., for a street driven weekend toy?
 

cttandy

Pro Stocker
Mar 9, 2009
1,458
0
0
Springfield, Tn
I think a lot will boil down to personal preference and driving style with the different suspension setups. I don't recall ever seeing 2 identical race vehicles (other then a backup), even when owned by the same people. I have seen very similiar setups done by multiple people, but they seem to take different routes in the finer details.

This doesn't mean one is right or one is wrong, better or worse. This just means different.

I haven't done work on a car to make it corner. I did however do work on my 2003 Yukon XL. I lowered is 3 inches in the front and 5 in the rear. Poly sway bar bushings and end links. Poly bushings in the front and rear control arms. The truck cornered like it was on rails. It acted in no way like the boat it was. With stock size falken tires on cadillac escalade 17 inch wheels, I could stick it on a back road and make your neck start hurting. Many people commented how surprised they were at how the truck handled, made my brother a little sick even. With 4.11 gears and a few engine tweaks, it didn't roll like something as big as it was either. It could easily handle a 10,000 lb + trailer when it came time to work.

That being said, I am sure there was another way to do the same thing. Possibly without lowering it.

I pulled everything off and put the truck back stock. I sold all the stuff to a buddy. He and his wife a really tickled with it. He put wider tires on his with some monster brakes.

I think everyone has to take other's advice with a grain of salt. Use their "opinion" for you base "theory" and begin to experiment with what works for you and makes you happy.

My malibu wagon will be lowered, with over sized sway bars to start with. I will play with it from there and see where I go. I need to get the motor done and get it on the road before I know what I want to do. I have a 15 minute ride to and from work on a very windy switch back highway to figure out how I want it. With spine damage, I am a little picky about how they ride. To stiff, I can't walk when I get out, I just kinda wobble around like a drunk.


Oh, my old brown ugly pickup has full poly setup in the front suspension, stock in the rear. Some kid in a souped up toyota tried to keep up with me coming home a few weeks ago. He found himself sideways in the oncoming traffic. I made the turn at 70 mph + and was pulling away from him hard. I wasn't racing, I had the cruise set!

Biggest thing I have learned so far, you can do all you want to the suspension. If the tires can't make it hook, your screwed. Wither on-road on sticking pavement, or out in the woods in the mud, it still applies.
 

Norm Peterson

Amateur Racer
Oct 18, 2003
251
0
16
state of confusion
rjleiker said:
I saw a kit you could buy that had the control arm boxing pieces pre-cut that you just weld in... has anyone else seen these?
They have a very specific purpose (involving fairly serious dragstrip competition), but this kit won't help a street driven car enough to be worth the downsides.
Also, what would everyone consider to be the best first (or second and third) step in modification to corner better from bone stock - bushings, arms, sway bars, braces, spindles, ball joints, etc..., for a street driven weekend toy?
In autocrossing, the order in which the greatest gains are obtained is nearly always (1) driver "seat time" and experience driving at that level, (2) tires/wheels, (3) everything else.

So . . . leaving out #1, start with tires and wheels. As much as I dislike recommending a wheel size that's 3" bigger than what was OE, the simple fact is that there isn't much of anything good as far as hard cornering is concerned in 14" & 15". Maybe for Hondas and smaller Mazdas, etc., but not for anything up there around 3500 lbs. I'd look at 17 x 8 with 245/45-17's. Kumho MX tires come in that size won't break the bank, and at one time the MX was a top choice in the SCCA Solo (autocross) street tire classes.

BFG g-Force Sports might be the best current 15" tire (225/60-15), but that does not mean that they're great. While they have decent straight line traction and can corner fairly well, they are not very good at all when you're trying to add throttle while still cornering. Good "drifting" tire, maybe. Forget about "Traction T/A" and other older tire models or tires with "cutesy" names (i.e. "Assurance", "Primacy", etc.).


(3) - poly-bushed endlinks, good shocks, and a performance-oriented alignment. Choose Bilsteins before KYB Gas-A-Justs. Some have had good results with IAS shocks (I have no basis for opinion since I haven't tried them), and there supposedly are Koni Special D (Reds) at a rather higher price point. As far as handling is concerned, Monroe SensaTraks are NOT good shocks, and KYB GR-2's are only OE replacement shocks. Tall ball joints might be a good idea as part of the performance alignment, and don't let the alignment tech set the car to OE alignment specs.

If your car does not have them already, F41 sta-bars ("sway bars") are pretty much a no-brainer, along with slightly stiffer springs.

Replace the body bushings with polyurethane. Poly is also good in the front upper control arms and OK in the front lowers (in the lowers it may gradually deform over time, though). It's less good in the rear lower control arms and a poor choice for rear uppers as far as cornering is concerned - it tends to stiffen the rear and make the car oversteerish when you're pushing it hard enough. Good for the dragstrip frequently does not translate to good in the corners. For a weekend driver, LCAs with poly in one end and a rod end or a Johnny Joint in the other seems to be a good compromise.

Additional chassis bracing is generally a good thing, though I'd suggest doing this more for reasons of structural integrity than for any effect on handling itself.


One other thing - the further you push this car in the cornering/handling direction, the more likely you'll find that the Powertrax is limiting you. Lockers are very good at the straight line, not so good at cornering, especially when the turns get tight and/or you're on and off the throttle. When you're cornering hard, adding throttle will make the car understeer more (push) until the rear tires lose grip, at which point a spin is likely. Get out off the throttle too much and the rear will still get a little loose as the locker unlocks and its "push" effect goes away. A lot of the detail decisions like how stiff the rear springs and bar need to be will ultimately depend on what sort of differential you're running as well as on how hard you're actually driving.


Give Marcus (http://www.scandc.com) a call.


Norm
 

James Bond

Dragway Regular
Dec 26, 2005
1,359
0
0
Earth
good info norm. i always like reading your posts. =D>
 

MalibuRacing.com Gear

Stickers & Shirts!!

Latest posts