What A-arms and coil overs to get. A little confused

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Amateur Racer
Jun 21, 2011
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I bought the SC&C kit, including the SPC arms. The alignment guys usually look at me weird when they see my control arms. I had to seek out specialty race shop to set my alignment. Once the alignment was set I'm not sure I see an advantage of the SPC arms unless you're fine tuning your suspension for different track conditions. It's likely not many g-body folks are that serious and will really take advantage of that.

Speedtech arms have additional caster built both in the lowers and uppers, and they adjust like a normal alignment. They have Delrin bushings, stainless cross shafts, and use heavy duty ball joints. Speedtech recently launched some new parts on their new website.


There's enough aftermarket support out there now that the B body spindle thing is a bit outdated, I wouldn't recommend it.
 
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Chevy2410

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Thanks for all the comments and input. What I ended up doing was going with UMI lower controls arms, upper control arms with 1/2' taller ball joints and Viking double adjustable coil overs with 550lb spring on the front and UMI double adjustable upper and lower control arms on the rear. The LCA on the rear have the Roto-joints on both ends and the UCA has Roto-joint on the end that bolts to the body. Also the same Viking shocks as up front except not coil over. Bought this stuff during their Xmas sale and finally got around to installing it.

For the most part I'm pretty happy with the set-up. I do have an issue with ride height. The product description for the Viking coil overs states that they can be adjusted from stock to 3' drop in ride height. I have the thrust bearing all the way down and my car still sits to high. For those of you that didn't know my front set up I'll restate it.

I have an 80 Malibu, front suspension consisted of stock upper and lower control arms with stock new Grand National shocks. I had 2' drop spindles and 1' drop springs. That brought the car 3' lower in the front and it looked pretty cool, but not very drivable.

So that brings us to now. I've ditched the drop spindles and springs and have gone back to the stock GM spindles that came with the car and the coil over set-up. So what I guess I'm wanting to know, is the stock spindle to tall to get the ride height I'm looking for? Is adding 1/2' taller ball joints make the stock spindle even taller? I really only need maybe a 1" more drop in ride height than it is now and should be good.

What do you guys think? I never measured what stock ride height is on an 80 Malibu. Does anyone know?

Thanks,
Chevy
 

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Jun 21, 2011
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For geometry reasons, a tall spindle is important. Generally speaking, you want that upper ball joint up high to keep your camber curve in a decent zone, G bodies need all the help they can get. Using the tall ball joints is a good idea and you're on the right track there. When we (Speedtech) sell a set of Vlking shocks we tell folks expect about 2.5" of height adjustability. That doesn't mean 2.5" of drop, but rather it means 2.5" from it's highest to lowest adjustable point. I'm not sure a coilover can drop a total of 3" from stock height on it's own, that sounds like a lot. I'll check into that when I get to the office on Monday.

Sounds like you need some shorter springs. I would call UMI and tell them that the car didn't do what you wanted and ask if they have shorter springs they can send you. Viking sells various length springs so they should be able to help you out with that.

Don't know on the Malibus, but my 79 Cutlass was at 27" at the top of my front fender opening before I dropped it. I used the S10 #5660 600 lb. springs with 1/2 a coil cut off, and 1/2" tall ball joints on the stock lowers and SPC uppers for a total of 2" drop. Not the same reference as yours but may add some insight.

G Bodies also like a caster change for better handling and steering response. I'm curious if the UMI arms have a caster improvement and how much. I really don't know much about the specifics of their parts.
 

Chevy2410

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G Bodies also like a caster change for better handling and steering response. I'm curious if the UMI arms have a caster improvement and how much. I really don't know much about the specifics of their parts.

According to their description it has up to 6 degrees of caster.

I called Ramy at UMI on Thurday and explained my situation and he suggested putting the drop spindles back on and then turn up the thrust bearing until I get the desired height I want. He also said that the springs that came with the shocks were 10" in overall Free height. Now if I had ordered the 450lb spring would that spring be shorter? There's no input when ordering online for that. The whole idea with going to coil overs is so I could ditch the drop spindles and go back with a stock spindle. I was also considering doing the blazer brake upgrade, but the spindle height of the blazer and stock gBody spindle is the same, so I'm not losing or gaining any height. I'm just getting better braking, which would be nice.


Chevy
 

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Hmmm, not meaning to dog anyone but that's not the advice I would've expected. Throwing the drop spindles back on isn't the answer, it's a band aid and a great way to tell you to keep what you bought and deal with it, or maybe a way to say we don't know our product line very well or we don't have the personal experience to know how to really make a car handle well, we just sell what seems to be popular. :-s Drop spindles specifically on a g body have issues on their own, they put the steering arm in an awkward position in relation to the wheel and they don't help improve the inherent G body akerman/ bumpsteer issues, sometimes making it worse. They're kind of a waste of money unless all you want is a slammed stance at the car show. If you want your car to handle better, put 'em on ebay and sell 'em to an S10 owner, then take your wife on a nice date so she won't give you a bad time for spending more money on your car to go around corners fast. :lol:

UMI probably originally sold you the coilover 10dp550 spring, i.e. 10" free height and 550 lb rate. That's pretty typical and a very common point to start with, working fine for most vehicles. Springs aren't very expensive though, even if UMI said you're SOL because that's what comes in the kit, they could have at least offered to sell you a different set of new springs. For example, straight from the Viking catalog, there's a 9dp550, or even an 8dp550. In fact springs range from 4" to 14" free height and from 175 to 700 lb spring rate. Potentially your problem could be easily solved with different springs. Shock bodies have to be matched to springs too so they maintain the proper motion range without bottoming out. I'm not in sales at work, but if you called us they could look up what part # shock body you have and let you know what height springs work with it.

A 450 lb spring may drop a teeny bit more, but only because it's a weaker spring. It's also going to give you a softer ride and not add as much to your handling. Some may argue this, in more recent years, if I have my facts right, Nascar has leaned towards a softer spring rate so that the car sucks to the ground as brakes are applied and they head into a corner. This allows a great deal of camber change but there's a lot more engineering to it than just that. All other parts have to be set up to fit within this theory. If anybody's curious about the old vs new method of spring rate, Ron Sutton did a great write up on Lateral-g.net. I'll dig up a link if you want to learn more about that.

But, for the most part, an average street car that will see an autocross now and again usually runs 550-650 lb spring weight. 550 is the common Viking spring for an LSx or small block because it's s decent rate to notice a good increase in handling and you can use the shock valving to adjust for a softer or firmer ride from that base point. We rarely sell 450 lb springs unless it's mainly a comfy cruizer. Keep in mind besides heavier rate springs, your alignment, sway bars and getting that shock setting and tire pressure dialed in at the track also play a role in how the car handles. Spring rate is only part of the equation.

From what I've seen and in my own experience, G bodies seem to like to oversteer and kick the rear end out. Some people think it's cool that their car has "enough power" to slide the rear out and they can drift it a bit at the autocross, but realistically their suspension isn't set up right and/or they don't know how to drive. Sliding in any form means you're losing seconds on the clock and a shot at the winner's circle. It's cool in a drift competition but really nowhere else. When I first set up my car I got a a lot of oversteer accelerating out of corners. I played with shock settings but it wasn't enough. I ended up unhooking my rear sway bar and can now fine tune it a bit with shock settings and tire pressure to better manage it. This isn't the answer for every car, just seems to be what my car with it's current set up likes. To start out, you really need a decent base point, for example where you are right now, and go racing... a lot. Becoming a better driver could potentially knock 5 seconds off your time in one day. Farting around with shock settings and spring rates may only yield .5 secs over the course of a day. See what I'm getting at?

Now back to your car. If you want to really get a decent spindle on there, go for the ATS AFX spindle. It's one of the greatest things to happen to a G body because it starts at the core of the car's turning geometry. They drop the car about 1", but keep the tall height and relocate the steering arm for much better all around geometry. They also use the super duty ZR1 hub and are set up to accept C5 and C6 Corvette stock or aftermarket brake options. They aren't cheap, but anybody who really knows anything about making a G body (or F body, or X body, or A body...) handle, swears by them. http://www.speedtechperformance.com...ct_id=221/category_id=96/mode=prod/prd221.htm

The main advantage of going with the later S10 Blazer spindle is the fact that it has a tougher sealed hub and drop off rotors. This makes it easier to adapt bigger brakes from Wilwood, Baer, etc. and Kore 3 makes brackets for stuff like that. Outside of that they don't do much for you. To keep it on the cheap side, I run my original stock spindles that have been modified to use "LS" 98-02 Camaro 12" brakes with dual piston calipers. The braking ability of the car is night and day over the stock G body junk. I can only imagine what a set of 14" 6 piston Baers would be like. I believe there are also brackets available to run the stock 13" C5 brakes on a G body spindle too.

If you want, feel free to call our Speedtech tech dept., 435-628-4300. We have a long background of pro-touring type racing and the engineering know how to intelligently answer your questions. I'm sure we can shed a little light on getting you where you want to be.
 

Chevy2410

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Dec 29, 2011
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Now back to your car. If you want to really get a decent spindle on there, go for the ATS AFX spindle. It's one of the greatest things to happen to a G body because it starts at the core of the car's turning geometry. They drop the car about 1", but keep the tall height and relocate the steering arm for much better all around geometry. They also use the super duty ZR1 hub and are set up to accept C5 and C6 Corvette stock or aftermarket brake options. They aren't cheap, but anybody who really knows anything about making a G body (or F body, or X body, or A body...) handle, swears by them. G Body AFX Spindles

I was on the website yesterday and saw those spindles. They are really nice! Out of my budget for now. Perhaps down the road. I haven't heard back from UMI yet so I decided to call Viking and I talked to someone about my situation. They recommended going with the 450lb spring. I wanted a higher rate spring for handling and you stated that the 450ib spring will be a little soft.
UMI probably originally sold you the coilover 10dp550 spring, i.e. 10" free height and 550 lb rate. That's pretty typical and a very common point to start with, working fine for most vehicles. Springs aren't very expensive though, even if UMI said you're SOL because that's what comes in the kit, they could have at least offered to sell you a different set of new springs. For example, straight from the Viking catalog, there's a 9dp550, or even an 8dp550. In fact springs range from 4" to 14" free height and from 175 to 700 lb spring rate. Potentially your problem could be easily solved with different springs. Shock bodies have to be matched to springs too so they maintain the proper motion range without bottoming out. I'm not in sales at work, but if you called us they could look up what part # shock body you have and let you know what height springs work with it.

I have a Viking catalog and saw the different spring free height and the different rates. If I go to a 8-9" free height spring in the same 550lb rate will going shorter should give me the 1 or 2 " drop that I'm looking for? I measured the ride height that the car sits now and it's 24 7/8" from ground to the lip of the fender. If stock ride height is 27" or even 26" then I can see how the coil over could be at the end of its' adjustability.


Thanks,
Chevy
 
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Jun 21, 2011
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BTW I don't mean to come across as a donkey's rear half when I spoke about UMI. I've been left hanging by companies that don't take the time to try to work things out as part of their customer service that should go along with every sale. That stuff frustrates me, from what you posted seems like they blew you off a bit and that's annoying. To be fair I didn't hear the whole conversation so that may change everything. At this point I still don't like their answer/ resolution though.

Something I'd like to clarify first- did you buy the "hybrid" Viking coilovers- the ones with a conical spring that install on the upper half like a regular coil spring and shock and the bottom is like a coilover, or are yours like a coilover on top and the bottom?

Let's measure this way so we can compare apples to apples as our wheel openings might be different heights to begin with. What is your frame height just behind the front wheel opening, under the rear portion of the front fender? Mine is right about 5 1/4" between the frame rail and the ground. I should mention here that last time I had the front end apart to replace my factory lower arms with Speedtech arms I cut another 1/4 coil off my springs and the new combination dropped the car another approx 3/4". That was a little more than I had hoped for, so at this point although it looks cool I think car is too low. I felt the car handled better when it was at 6" at the frame rail. The steering linkage now goes up hill between the centerlink and the spindle which messes with the geometry a bit and creates a little bumpsteer. Ideally that should be level straight across. I'm saving my pennies to do a coilover conversion and will straighten that out when I'm ready to go that route.

So, I'm wondering where your car is compared to mine, and also where you want it to be? Remember, slammed in the weeds doesn't necessarily mean better handling, infact if it's not done right it can sometimes take away from the car's abilities. It looks cool though, so there comes a point where you have to decide what's most important.
 

Chevy2410

Weekend Racer
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Dec 29, 2011
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BTW I don't mean to come across as a donkey's rear half when I spoke about UMI. I've been left hanging by companies that don't take the time to try to work things out as part of their customer service that should go along with every sale. That stuff frustrates me, from what you posted seems like they blew you off a bit and that's annoying. To be fair I didn't hear the whole conversation so that may change everything. At this point I still don't like their answer/ resolution though.

I live on the west coast and because of the time difference I can't always get to call them in time before they close for the day. So I used their technical help through email yesterday. I explained what the issue I was having and the reply back was "do you still have the drop spindles"? That was from Ramey. Then I replied and said yes, and haven't heard a thing since.
Something I'd like to clarify first- did you buy the "hybrid" Viking coilovers- the ones with a conical spring that install on the upper half like a regular coil spring and shock and the bottom is like a coilover, or are yours like a coilover on top and the bottom?

Hmm, I'm not sure if they are classified as "hybrid" or not. What they are is a typical coil over shock, except that the upper part of the spring is like a traditional spring for a Gbody car. The top of the spring sits in the spring pocket within the frame. The top of the shock is then pushed up into the frame and a nut is screwed on like a traditional shock for a Gbody car. The bottom of the spring then sits on a thrust bearing to allow for the adjusting.

Let's measure this way so we can compare apples to apples as our wheel openings might be different heights to begin with. What is your frame height just behind the front wheel opening, under the rear portion of the front fender? Mine is right about 5 1/4" between the frame rail and the ground. I should mention here that last time I had the front end apart to replace my factory lower arms with Speedtech arms I cut another 1/4 coil off my springs and the new combination dropped the car another approx 3/4". That was a little more than I had hoped for, so at this point although it looks cool I think car is too low. I felt the car handled better when it was at 6" at the frame rail. The steering linkage now goes up hill between the centerlink and the spindle which messes with the geometry a bit and creates a little bumpsteer. Ideally that should be level straight across. I'm saving my pennies to do a coilover conversion and will straighten that out when I'm ready to go that route.

So I did the measurement and mine sits at 6 1/2" from the frame rail to the ground. I think the car needs about another 1/2" to 3/4" lower.

This is how low the car sat in the front before I swapped the new control arms and coil overs. This was with the 2" drop spindles and 1" lowering springs. Too low and not very drivable.




Chevy
 

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Amateur Racer
Jun 21, 2011
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Very nice lookin' Malibu!

OK, so you do have the "Hybrid" Coilover. With that one they only have 10" and 11" springs if I remember correctly.

Sounds like you're on track with the ride height you want. If you haven't already done so, one thing you can try is mounting the shock below the spring pocket on the lower arm i/e the shock t-bar will be bolted up against the bottom of the control arm spring cup, instead of on top of the spring cup. That alone will give you about that much difference because you're essentially dropping the thread range of the shock the thickness of the T bar plus the thickness of the spring cup. I'll measure Blake's Grand National's frame height when I get to the shop tomorrow, he has Speedtech arms and coilovers and we'll see how his compares to our cars.
 

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