Turbo or Supercharger?

[Robert1320]

a turbo isn't free hp but a blower will use more hp to make power than a turbo.

and we know this how? we can measure how much power it takes to turn a blower but we have no way of measuring how much the turbo is choking the engine. don't forget boost on charge side is restriction on exhaust side.

Last a well designed Turbo system may have less hot side back pressure than cold side boost pressure.

I most cases less than 2-1 is good anyway.
Somewhere in the 1.2-1.4 to 1 is just fine.

 

[chris406]

If you ever have a procharger and have to send it back for repairs, you're going to sh*t when you get the bill. Centrifugals are more expensive. Every one I've ever know who has had to have a ProCharger repaired has paid at least the original cost of the unit to repair the damage. Not to mention the cost of belts. Special balancers and crankshafts with big snouts. $1000+ crank supports. I can have my turbo rebuilt for $96. Borg Warner makes 1000+hp turbos that can be bought for >$600. I have $200 in my turbo headers that have held up under constant abuse for 2 years.

Before I went turbo I seriously considered a ProCharger. For me the decision was about cost. I could replicate my system for under $3500, including CSU modded carb, CSU carb hat, Killer fuel system, all the parts for hotside, turbo, blow off valve, wastegate, boost controller, the works. That would barely by me a basic ProCharger kit with just the head unit and the brackets and 1 belt.

 

[basketcase]

If you ever have a procharger and have to send it back for repairs, you're going to #### when you get the bill. Centrifugals are more expensive. Every one I've ever know who has had to have a ProCharger repaired has paid at least the original cost of the unit to repair the damage. Not to mention the cost of belts. Special balancers and crankshafts with big snouts. $1000+ crank supports. I can have my turbo rebuilt for $96. Borg Warner makes 1000+hp turbos that can be bought for >$600. I have $200 in my turbo headers that have held up under constant abuse for 2 years.

Before I went turbo I seriously considered a ProCharger. For me the decision was about cost. I could replicate my system for under $3500, including CSU modded carb, CSU carb hat, Killer fuel system, all the parts for hotside, turbo, blow off valve, wastegate, boost controller, the works. That would barely by me a basic ProCharger kit with just the head unit and the brackets and 1 belt.

Why would you pay the original cost to REPAIR a head unit when you can buy a NEW unit? Sounds *ss-backwards.

You're comparing a $600 turbo to a $2k head unit...Why not compare a $2k turbo to a $2k head unit?

You get what you pay for.

 

[Anonymous]

blown small block 445hp for $3995

go to carcraft.com read tech article,price is carb to pan,cheaper if you have some parts or motor already,can drive around on regular gas,put in premium when you want to put your foot in it,very throttle responsive,perfect street setup

 

[Jackstand]

But a blower has the same issues, no? 10.5:1 is still high for a blower motor isn't it?

very good friend has is runnning 4lbs on a 11:1 C/R 06 Zo6 made little over 100hp more at the wheels..

 

[chris406]

Why would you pay the original cost to REPAIR a head unit when you can buy a NEW unit? Sounds ###-backwards.

You're comparing a $600 turbo to a $2k head unit...Why not compare a $2k turbo to a $2k head unit?

You get what you pay for.[/quote]

Well that's what has happened from people I know, it's definitely backwards. I don't need to compare a $2000 turbo to a $2000 head unit. My $1200 turbo will support 1400hp. How much does an F1 or F2 cost? Mine can be rebuilt for $96. An actual $2000 turbo will support over 2000hp, I'm pretty sure my buddy paid more for his F3. I'd probably sh*t if I knew what Mark Micke paid for his huge by large procharger that propelled him to 6.30's at over 230mph last time I saw him race. I guess I should have said that for a race car a turbo is cheaper. Now if I had a 5.0 mustang than I could pick up an S-trim kit for $1500.

I like both but I'm completely convinced a turbo is cheaper overall including maintenance.

 

[Anonymous]

If all it costs is $96.00 to rebuild your turbo that means you have a bushing in it. If you eat the impeller or loose oil pressure i'm sure it will cost more than 96.00. I have seen many turbos eat bearings/bushings/trash and have to be complety redone at the tune of 2K or more. I had a brand new BB turbo for a customers Typhoon that i put on and it broke right away, what does that mean?? are turbos junk or was something wrong with it? I have also sent prochargers back to get done and have spent nothing but shipping and seal money (less than $100.00). Now one time i did rev my small block to high in the water and trashed a impeller on my p600 procharger that i put a cog setup on. is this the prochargers fault or mine?

A turbo is cheaper for a race car? I don't know any real race car built from a junkyard turbo site. There are to many variables...... stainless headers, merge collectors, waste gates, boost controller, co2 to hold the gates closed. I'm finishing one up now with twin gt88's (2500. each just for the turbos) How much for the custom fab work at 75.00 per hour?

Now lets look at the procharger. you open the kit and all the parts are there and it bolts on . No need for new headers or custom fabricating unless you do a custom A/W (but then again you would spend that money on a turbo setup also so its a wash).

Are you guys forgeting a procharger is a crankshaft driven turbo?

 

[Anonymous]

and we know this how? we can measure how much power it takes to turn a blower but we have no way of measuring how much the turbo is choking the engine. don't forget boost on charge side is restriction on exhaust side.

This a quote from a Engineer that work with this daily and a great read.

I will try and give as HONEST of an answer as I can if we can specify a few parameters.

Lets say your F1R can make 1000 hp based on moving a given amount of air at the same 25 psi in the Intake Manifold.

You will never see that 1000 hp in real life (in this example) as the supercharger is belt driven and consumes a given
amount of HP that the engine is making.

It is a well known rule of thumb that it takes about 1 hp to move 1 lb of air.

A supercharger has other losses from the belt and from the mechanical parts in the supercharger so 15% added to
the "Air Power hp number.

Supercharger Flywheel hp would be:

100 lbs of air moved makes 1000 hp minus 100 hp to move the 100# of air plus 15 hp for the other losses =

1000hp - 115hp = 885hp at the flywheel (Given the right camshaft, same heads, right exhaust, right timing, etc)


Now we do the Turbocharger

Same rule of thumb of 1 hp to move 1 lb of air.

A Turbocharger has other losses (No belt or mechanical losses but it does have back pressure)

BUT WE DO HAVE EXHAUST ENERGY AND EXHAUST TEMPERATURE

Turbocharger Flywheel hp would be:

100 lbs of air moved makes 1000 hp minus about 15 hp for exhaust back pressure =

1000hp - 15hp = 985hp at the flywheel (Given the right camshaft, same heads, right exhaust, right timing, etc)

If we assume the common rule that 1/3 of the total energy goes through the mechanical parts, 1/3 goes out of
the exhaust, and 1/3 goes into the cooling system we can then assume that the exhaust contributed the 100 hp
that drove the Turbine wheel and therefore the compressor wheel to move that 100 lbs of air per minute.

IF you do not have the right camshaft, IF you do not have a proper Turbo Manifold system, IF you do not have the
right exhaust system after the Turbo, the numbers will change just like they would on a "Belt System" if you made
a mistake there.

A Turbo will make the same heat across the compressor side of the turbo moving the same amount of lbs of air but
there will be a very slight increase in temp from the center housing oil cooling and water cooling not being 100%
efficient. But the number is a small difference.

A Turbo will always make more power at the flywheel vs a "belt car" as the turbo is using (as was mentioned FREE
POWER from the exhaust).

About as honest as I can be.

**********If we assume the common rule that 1/3 of the total energy goes through the mechanical parts, 1/3 goes out of
the exhaust, and 1/3 goes into the cooling system we can then assume that the exhaust contributed the 100 hp
that drove the Turbine wheel and therefore the compressor wheel to move that 100 lbs of air per minute.

IF you do not have the right camshaft, IF you do not have a proper Turbo Manifold system, IF you do not have the
right exhaust system after the Turbo, the numbers will change just like they would on a "Belt System" if you made
a mistake there.

A Turbo will make the same heat across the compressor side of the turbo moving the same amount of lbs of air but
there will be a very slight increase in temp from the center housing oil cooling and water cooling not being 100%
efficient.*****************

seems like he had hard numbers for the blower power loss but is doing a lot of *assuming* on the turbo stuff. I really like this quote myself " about 15 hp for exhaust back pressure" Like i said we can measure the loss of the blower but everybdy just assumes the turbo is better.

 

[Anonymous]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by MyBU:
This car has to be streetable, yet potent. So id say probably about 500hp would do the trick on a $4000 budget if I go naturally aspirated.

I dont really know if I need a power adder though.

What components could I use to make if not, close to 500hp?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



I would love to know how we got here from this question

 

[Robert1320]

If all it costs is $96.00 to rebuild your turbo that means you have a bushing in it. If you eat the impeller or loose oil pressure i'm sure it will cost more than 96.00. I have seen many turbos eat bearings/bushings/trash and have to be complety redone at the tune of 2K or more. I had a brand new BB turbo for a customers Typhoon that i put on and it broke right away, what does that mean?? are turbos junk or was something wrong with it? I have also sent prochargers back to get done and have spent nothing but shipping and seal money (less than $100.00). Now one time i did rev my small block to high in the water and trashed a impeller on my p600 procharger that i put a cog setup on. is this the prochargers fault or mine?

A turbo is cheaper for a race car? I don't know any real race car built from a junkyard turbo site. There are to many variables...... stainless headers, merge collectors, waste gates, boost controller, co2 to hold the gates closed. I'm finishing one up now with twin gt88's (2500. each just for the turbos) How much for the custom fab work at 75.00 per hour?

Now lets look at the procharger. you open the kit and all the parts are there and it bolts on . No need for new headers or custom fabricating unless you do a custom A/W (but then again you would spend that money on a turbo setup also so its a wash).

Are you guys forgeting a procharger is a crankshaft driven turbo?

If blowers are so good why are you building this guy a twin turbo set-up.....?

You should look at Quick79's set-up, basic B/W diesel turbo and he is in the high 5's on a budget. No controller, no CO2, e-bay headers....